Letterboxing USA - Yahoo Groups Archive

New Convert... and GPS?

10 messages in this thread | Started on 2002-09-16

Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?

From: Happy Mapper (happymapper@hotmail.com) | Date: 2002-09-16 03:47:47 UTC
Ah, yes, GPS. It would be nice if coordinates were an accepted part of this
hobby. Not like the geocacher's use them, to guide you as close as the
technology will allow, but for a variety of purposes they can be wonderful
tools. For example, if you want to direct someone to a particular park,
coordinates can be used with topozone.com to see where the park is, and a
map of its layout.
For example, if I identify an Lb as being on Teddy Roosevelt Island, who
would know where that is(and yes, that is often supposed to be part of the
mystery), but if it doesn't have to be part of the mystery, I could add Zone
18, 321000E, 4307300N and you could see very GENERALIZED picture (a map)of
where the Lb is located out of the whole Lb world. Particularly useful for
visitors to a new area.

And then if you wanted to use a GPS receiver to help get in the vicinity,
well all the better for reducing the pain of the obsessed. :-)

It would also make it possible to automatically sort and build a map of Lb
locations on the website.

Just a thought from...
The Happy Mapper


>From: "psycomommy2003"
>Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [LbNA] New Convert
>Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:34:36 -0000
>
> The hubby (DH) decided to give it a go again this past Friday.
>This would be his second outing. I planned on nabbing 3 boxes
>starting with Squirrels' Mystery Box. Off we went. We hunted close to
>2 hours for that box. DH was bound and determined to find it. I told
>him my theory of where it was(naturally it was different from his)
>and we should leave to find the next two. While driving to the next
>location he kept going over Squirrels clues convincing only himself
>that he had been close. I still believe in my theory!
> Nabbed the second box and off to #3. This is where we stumble
>across our first Benchmark. For those out there it is a survey
>marker. AND yes, I know this subject belongs in the Geocaching site,
>but it is pertinent to my story! DH is so excited to give me a lesson
>on benchmarks. I write down all the info. on the disk so I can log it
>in. Later I find out I should have taken a picture. I don't have a
>GPS to get the co-ordinates, but I can bet that Mr. Technology will
>get a GPS soon!
> After finding box #3 we drove home. DH was all a twitter.
>Talking about what his handle would be and how he wanted to carve his
>own stamp! When I told him some people use a dremmel, well that just
>fueled his fire. POWER TOOLS!!!!!!
> Back home. I go to try to log in the benchmark and can hear the
>drill in the distance! Proudly he shows me his stamp. "Pretty darn
>good for the first time" I tell him. "It's all in the tools" is his
>reply.
> So I present to the community, Silver Fox, a new convert. I doubt
>he will go with me all the time. Given a choice between swinging his
>clubs and hunting for boxes, I'm sure he'd choose being with
>his "peeps" on the links!
> The End
>
> p.s. I recommend using the dremmel outside. My kitchen has little
>rubber bits everywhere! Now, if only he could get excited on the
>clean up.
>




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Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?

From: MadMary (madmary@cox.net) | Date: 2002-09-16 00:45:28 UTC-04:00
I totally disagree. I hope this hobby *never* uses GPS. The beauty of
letterboxing is that anyone can participate, even those of us who are barely
scraping by. If you start using coordinates for some boxes, then they
become exclusionary, even if all you are offering is bonus info. It's info
that the only some folks will benefit from. Besides, people were able to
find parks just fine before the advent of GPS and Topozone, and the parks
haven't exactly moved around.

Let's leave the gadgetry to the cachers.

Mare

----- Original Message -----
From: "Happy Mapper"
To:
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?


> Ah, yes, GPS. It would be nice if coordinates were an accepted part of
this
> hobby. Not like the geocacher's use them, to guide you as close as the
> technology will allow, but for a variety of purposes they can be wonderful
> tools. For example, if you want to direct someone to a particular park,
> coordinates can be used with topozone.com to see where the park is, and a
> map of its layout.



Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?

From: lizardbuttsfamily (mmebt@hotmail.com) | Date: 2002-09-16 04:56:27 UTC
Light bulb lit up! Thanks for planting an idea. Instead of giving
directions like drive here to find the park entrance(or start) just
give the coords. Cool! I like this this idea. Thanks for sharing your
thoughts.

Monica



"Happy Mapper" wrote:
> Ah, yes, GPS. It would be nice if coordinates were an accepted
part of this
> hobby. Not like the geocacher's use them, to guide you as close as
the
> technology will allow, but for a variety of purposes they can be
wonderful
> tools. For example, if you want to direct someone to a particular
park,
> coordinates can be used with topozone.com to see where the park is,
and a
> map of its layout.
> For example, if I identify an Lb as being on Teddy Roosevelt
Island, who
> would know where that is(and yes, that is often supposed to be part
of the
> mystery), but if it doesn't have to be part of the mystery, I could
add Zone
> 18, 321000E, 4307300N and you could see very GENERALIZED picture
(a map)of
> where the Lb is located out of the whole Lb world. Particularly
useful for
> visitors to a new area.
>
> And then if you wanted to use a GPS receiver to help get in the
vicinity,
> well all the better for reducing the pain of the obsessed. :-)
>
> It would also make it possible to automatically sort and build a
map of Lb
> locations on the website.
>
> Just a thought from...
> The Happy Mapper
>
>
> >From: "psycomommy2003"
I don't have a
> >GPS to get the co-ordinates, but I can bet that Mr. Technology will
> >get a GPS soon!



Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?

From: Alafair (ms_alafair@yahoo.com) | Date: 2002-09-15 22:09:10 UTC-07:00

I agree with MadMary. I own a GPS and leave it home when I am letterboxing. If someone wants to geocache with GPS, then that is their perogative. To use GPS coordinates as part of letterbox clues,even as a bonus, may offer unfair advantage to letterboxers who don't have this device. Call me technologically disinclined, but my personal preference is to keep letterboxing and geocaching separate, though I know there are some hybrid letterbox/caches out there.

Parks are located on basic road maps and in gazeteers. Many, but by no means all, parks have trail maps and if not, trails are marked in many places. Letterboxers write clues in such a way that compass headings, common measurements and landmarks are good enough to get from Point A to Point B and keep it interesting at the same time.

Mary is right when she says that letterboxing is an inexpensive endeavor and that is what makes it so attractive to so many. Even though clues are printed off from the LBNA site, I think it would be a fair stretch to state that some letterboxers don't own computers and depend on access in libraries or other public places to get clues. To have to add on-line topo maps as a requirement for finding a box would be very difficult for some.

I am not averse to change, but this time, IMHO, best to keep letterboxing the way it is.

Linda a/k/a Alafair

 MadMary wrote:

I totally disagree.  I hope this hobby *never* uses GPS.  The beauty of
letterboxing is that anyone can participate, even those of us who are barely
scraping by.  If you start using coordinates for some boxes, then they
become exclusionary, even if all you are offering is bonus info.  It's info
that the only some folks will benefit from.  Besides, people were able to
find parks just fine before the advent of GPS and Topozone, and the parks
haven't exactly moved around.

Let's leave the gadgetry to the cachers.

Mare

----- Original Message -----
From: "Happy Mapper" <happymapper@hotmail.com>
To: <letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?


> Ah, yes, GPS.  It would be nice if coordinates were an accepted part of
this
> hobby.  Not like the geocacher's use them, to guide you as close as the
> technology will allow, but for a variety of purposes they can be wonderful
> tools.  For example, if you want to direct someone to a particular park,
> coordinates can be used with topozone.com to see where the park is, and a
> map of its layout.




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Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?

From: skeletonema (tplane@attbi.com) | Date: 2002-09-16 09:21:16 UTC
GPS- how boring. I have used it professionally but I dont get the
fascination with geo caching or letterboxing derivitives with the GPS.
That said, there are no rules.

Todd



Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?

From: Happy Mapper (happymapper@hotmail.com) | Date: 2002-09-17 05:01:52 UTC
Okay, before we kill this dead horse....again, let me reword a bit.

MadMary, like you (as much as I love GPS), I'm inclined to think it detracts
from the hobby. Your point about keeping it simple and inexpensive is well
made. And if you give a coordinate as the final point, you invite the (God
love 'em) geocacheing crowd, who I suspect (not sure how to phrase this)
tend to come in droves cause its the American way...easier.

I took from Psycomommy the main point was (appropriate) use of earth
referenced COORDINATES. Please grant that if you can access the clues, you
generally have access to topozone.com, because the web is what ties all this
together. So I don't think accessing topozone is anymore a limiting issue on
someone than generally accessing the clues. And besides, there is always
the good 'ol fashioned paper map that was used with coordinates long before
anyone thought of GPS. And those USGS topographic maps on topozone are in
various public libraries, so you don't even need the web.

And as a last, but critical thought, let's chop the letters G-P-S from the
concept COORDINATE, and you can find that coordinates are very useful clues
to guide one into the general area...if one is so inclined to use them...
and if not... so be it. I think Psycomommy is on the trail of this one.
Getting you to the park with a coordinate as an address won't get you to
that itty, bitty, Lb.

I think the lesson for me, is to use coordinates to guide someone into the
general area (seemingly a turn off for many), and then to rely on 'classic'
clues for a bit of a challenge will keep down the environmental damage
around the Lb. (Having a GPS would do you little good in this application.)
:-)
Cheers!
HM


>From: "lizardbuttsfamily"
>Reply-To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?
>Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 04:56:27 -0000
>
>Light bulb lit up! Thanks for planting an idea. Instead of giving
>directions like drive here to find the park entrance(or start) just
>give the coords. Cool! I like this this idea. Thanks for sharing your
>thoughts.
>
>Monica
>
>
>
> "Happy Mapper" wrote:
> > Ah, yes, GPS. It would be nice if coordinates were an accepted
>part of this
> > hobby. Not like the geocacher's use them, to guide you as close as
>the
> > technology will allow, but for a variety of purposes they can be
>wonderful
> > tools. For example, if you want to direct someone to a particular
>park,
> > coordinates can be used with topozone.com to see where the park is,
>and a
> > map of its layout.
> > For example, if I identify an Lb as being on Teddy Roosevelt
>Island, who
> > would know where that is(and yes, that is often supposed to be part
>of the
> > mystery), but if it doesn't have to be part of the mystery, I could
>add Zone
> > 18, 321000E, 4307300N and you could see very GENERALIZED picture
>(a map)of
> > where the Lb is located out of the whole Lb world. Particularly
>useful for
> > visitors to a new area.
> >
> > And then if you wanted to use a GPS receiver to help get in the
>vicinity,
> > well all the better for reducing the pain of the obsessed. :-)
> >
> > It would also make it possible to automatically sort and build a
>map of Lb
> > locations on the website.
> >
> > Just a thought from...
> > The Happy Mapper
> >
> >
> > >From: "psycomommy2003"
> I don't have a
> > >GPS to get the co-ordinates, but I can bet that Mr. Technology will
> > >get a GPS soon!
>
>




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RE: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?

From: Jeremy Irish (jeremy@theirish.com) | Date: 2002-09-16 23:16:57 UTC-07:00
Happy Mapper,

I'm getting a bit tired about hearing how letterboxing is low impact
because they are harder, or there are less people finding them.

I could certainly find this letterbox near me with no problems.
http://www.letterboxing.org/wa/bridle.htm

And I think it would take some time for me to find this cache:
http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=6514

Obviously there are more people finding caches. But there are many more
caches, so it really ends up to be about the same letterbox and geocache
find ratios. Obviously since each letterbox doesn't have their virtual
counterpart, I can understand how someone would determine anecdotally
that a geocache will be found more often than a letterbox. I can't go to
letterboxing.org and see how many times the Bridal Trails letterbox is
found, because that feature isn't available.

So everyone on this list, the first step is to consider the geocacher as
an ally, since we have the same issues (acceptance by land managers,
proper placement, etc). We've also made some long strides in getting
acceptance in many areas, and frankly have done a lot more in this arena
since our community has grown stronger than yours over the past two
years. As I've seen from the growth of this mailing list, it seems that
you are growing as well. And as a result, you will (ultimately) lead to
the same issues, and are already traveling down the same path.

With that said, (Specifically Happy Mapper), you are suggesting to a
community of (general) technophobes to use a system that is alien to
most of them. Using the adage, "if it ain't broke don't fix it," why
bother with nearby coordinates when you can read the directions? It
seems to me that you're offering a suggestion that isn't really needed,
or wanted. If you want to create your own clues with lat/lon
coordinates, or suggest that others do so, it seems perfectly within
your toolset now. But I wouldn't expect it to be of interest to the
general letterboxing community.

Jeremy



Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?

From: psycomommy2003 (ktborrelli@hotmail.com) | Date: 2002-09-17 15:59:19 UTC
---Jeesh! I'm surprised that my little story has evolved so much as
to bring out the 2 Big Kahunas(sp) from Lboxing and Geocaching.
Believe me that was not the intent to start a dukefest between the
two.
That being said, I have to admit that the Geocache site is one up
on the Lbox site.(I can now hear all the purist groaning) Check for
yourselves! One great feature is that you can go to the cache listed
and read who has been there before. See the troubles the cachers have
gone through to find or NOT that particular cache! I find this to be
an excellent feature in geocaching.
I wish it could be done in Lboxing. It would save a lot of time
going through the archives to see if the box is still there because
it was planted years ago. It also eleminates the repeat guestions on
the talk list. "Does anybody out there have any info on such and such
box?" Or HH info. I know nothing about computers so don't anyone out
there write back to me and say "yeah, Karin go ahead and set it up".
It can be done because it is offered on the geocache site.
Respectfully to both sites,
Psychomommy aka Karin
P5 F24(1 is a geocache found w/o GPS) X2 C0 V3 E(soon to be 1)
B1(benchmark. Still having trouble logging it in. I know I found
it that's all that matters) and the ever popular L4 (lizards)

In letterbox-usa@y..., "Jeremy Irish" wrote:
> Happy Mapper,
>
> I'm getting a bit tired about hearing how letterboxing is low impact
> because they are harder, or there are less people finding them.
>
> I could certainly find this letterbox near me with no problems.
> http://www.letterboxing.org/wa/bridle.htm
>
> And I think it would take some time for me to find this cache:
> http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=6514
>
> Obviously there are more people finding caches. But there are many
more
> caches, so it really ends up to be about the same letterbox and
geocache
> find ratios. Obviously since each letterbox doesn't have their
virtual
> counterpart, I can understand how someone would determine
anecdotally
> that a geocache will be found more often than a letterbox. I can't
go to
> letterboxing.org and see how many times the Bridal Trails letterbox
is
> found, because that feature isn't available.
>
> So everyone on this list, the first step is to consider the
geocacher as
> an ally, since we have the same issues (acceptance by land managers,
> proper placement, etc). We've also made some long strides in getting
> acceptance in many areas, and frankly have done a lot more in this
arena
> since our community has grown stronger than yours over the past two
> years. As I've seen from the growth of this mailing list, it seems
that
> you are growing as well. And as a result, you will (ultimately)
lead to
> the same issues, and are already traveling down the same path.
>
> With that said, (Specifically Happy Mapper), you are suggesting to a
> community of (general) technophobes to use a system that is alien to
> most of them. Using the adage, "if it ain't broke don't fix it," why
> bother with nearby coordinates when you can read the directions? It
> seems to me that you're offering a suggestion that isn't really
needed,
> or wanted. If you want to create your own clues with lat/lon
> coordinates, or suggest that others do so, it seems perfectly within
> your toolset now. But I wouldn't expect it to be of interest to the
> general letterboxing community.
>
> Jeremy


Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?

From: Randy Hall (randy@mapsurfer.com) | Date: 2002-09-17 17:55:42 UTC-04:00

> Believe me that was not the intent to start a dukefest

I don't see a dukefest between anyone. Which is good, because the list
is weary of such ...

> I wish it could be done in Lboxing. It would save a lot of time
> going through the archives to see if the box is still there because
> it was planted years ago. It also eleminates the repeat guestions on
> the talk list. "Does anybody out there have any info on such and such
> box?"

I guess I'll groan :-) What ever happened to going out to the box to
find out stuff about it? What ever happened to "the point of the
journey -- is not to arrive" (and it escapes me from what song that's
from -- the first person to e-mail me off-list with the answer gets one
of my 3 yes/no hint passes :-)). I guess people are bothered by going
out and not finding the box, which has always surprised me, since assured
success and spoilers is more boring than the thrill of discovery, IMHO.
(Ir would be a nice side effect to eliminate all the "whats the status
of this box" messages, tho ...).

It can be done. And it will be done someday by somebody. And when all
the park people ban letterboxing and geocaching, the whole thing can be
done online. You'll never even have to venture outside at all to discover
anything (because there's no reason to go there if we don't think we'll
find the tupperware) :-) It'll be just like real treasure hunting ...
(but it is interesting to note that letterboxing has flourished elsewere
for 150 years without it ...)

(BTW, something called "Hunted Treasures" was invented shortly after the
web, which is the equivalent of online letterboxing, and it predates
post-Smithsonian letterboxing. I'm not sure what a "virtual letterbox"
is, but my guess is that the ideas are similar. (I've put some hunted
treasures on my website which a handful of people have found ... :-)))

Cheers
with apologies for the sardonic edge, but most of you are used to it ... ;-)

Re: [LbNA] New Convert... and GPS?

From: (LoveLetterBoxing@aol.com) | Date: 2002-09-17 18:29:01 UTC-04:00
Prime Movers - Rush?